- What is a sneaker cook group. Whole companies with dozens of employees who buy and resell sneakers. For the most part, sneaker resellers get nearly all of their shoes online. Passive income, from rental real estate, is not subject to high effective tax rates. The American Rescue Plan Act makes it more likely that resale apps like eBay, StockX, and GOAT will have to report your sales, which you can be taxed for. Really expensive. What happens if you dont pay franchise tax? A 1099-K form is a documents that taxpayers receive when they have $600 or more in gross sales from a third part selling site like ebay. The IRS considers high-volume resellers that are moving pairs much more frequently as self-employed. Similarly, StockX will charge shipping fees for damaged or defective product, with inauthentic product dinging sellers at least $15 or at most 15 percent of the transaction total. Summary Reports: Marketplace platforms such as Amazon, eBay, and others provide sellers with access to useful monthly and annual reports. Do you have to pay taxes if you resell shoes? According to Tew, a lot of your selling activity will not show up on your bank statement, so unless you have been entering that selling activity into a bookkeeping program like QuickBooks, youll have to pull it straight out of your selling platform. Tew continues to note that having separate bank accounts for personal and business use is a must. If you are continuously reselling sneakers in an effort to make a profit, your income must be claimed on Schedule C of your tax form. One time at a family reunion, he was bragging about how he was avoiding taxes by calling his business a hobby rather than a business. You cannot claim for: any goods or materials bought for . When you get to the Business Income area, it will ask about 1099-MISC and you can just skip that and enter your income in the General Business Income area. You need pay for local shipping, agents fee, HD QC pictures, shipping international that cost 300-400 Yuan for a shoes (if you only buying a shoes). He had always done his own taxes. Whats the LLC Annual Fee? - Best online sneaker cook groups. Generally, resellers to do pay sales tax when they purchase the items, but must collect sales tax when those items are sold to the end user. We respect your privacy. Start A Sneaker Reseller Business . In this video I will give a full breakdown about taxes that eBay sellers need to pay, I'll make sure that everyth. This is one of the best items to resell. Income from rental real estate is sheltered by depreciation and amortization and results in a much lower effective tax rate. COMPLEX participates in various affiliate marketing programs, which means COMPLEX gets paid commissions on purchases made through our links to retailer sites. Sneakers, Sneakerheads, Sneaker Resellers & The Market. Will show signs of light use. Mileage: Keeping track of mileage used for business purposes can result in a significant tax deduction. (That's the federal requirement. "I have a formula inside my spreadsheet that helps me calculate my profit automatically, so that is very helpful," Jiang said. Sometimes tax season means a reseller finds themselves shorter on cash than they expected. What if you dont have receipts for the personal items? Another major seller is the Adidas UltraBoost 4.0, which runs for an average price of $130, or $50 under its retail price. When you see someone like me with 20 or 30 pairs, I may have got my personal pair for retail but every other pair is going to cost me.. The trouble is sorting through all of the misinformation, including the biggest reseller tax myths, which you will inevitably run into. Are you allowed to list a price for the item even though you dont have a receipt? Do I need a license to sell Nike products? Sellers on StockX are incentivized to become power sellers on the platform in order to reduce the costs they incur with each sale. Planning early can also help ensure that you don't pay your taxes late, which can result in penalties from the IRS. Unsubscribe at anytime. Even though that extra $7,000 is taxed at 22% instead of 12%, they wouldnt have had any of that money if Daisy had listened to Merrill. Our editorial content is not influenced by any commissions we receive. Galaxy Foamposites changed the game, recalls sneakerhead Gabriel Julio, who was maced at a New Jersey mall when the shoes were released in 2012. When it came time to do them during his first year of self-employment as a reseller, he decided to take the do-it-yourself approach again. direct costs from producing goods. While you should always consult with a tax professional who knows the tax rules and changing regulations, here are a few tips to get you started. These programs virtually automate everything, trying to rapidly check out numerous pairs from websites before they actually sell out. High volume resellers are considered self-employed, while low volume resellers should report their profits as hobby income. Depdending on volume, some resellers simply use real estate in their own dwellings to store shoes. One of the biggest myths floating around in the reselling community has been that you dont owe federal income taxes unless you make $20,000 and 200 sales in a year. Business Insider spoke with three successful sneaker resellers who make thousands of dollars a month and compiled their best practices for paying their taxes. 2 Can you make money sneaker reselling? Third party payment processors such as PayPal and Amazon are now required by the IRS to report transactions for resellers who make over $20,000 in sales and have 200 or more transactions. In some states, the threshold is even lower. Resale marketplaces with multi-billion-dollar valuations. Much of this has to do with the demand around limited sneakers, the quick cash associated with their resale, and the various platforms that are making reselling shoes more viable than ever. The pro version tracks more and has an impressive dashboard. Sneaker resellers in charge of their own businesses need to keep track of their sales and expenses in an organized system to ensure they pay their taxes correctly. 100. Middle men here: No hassle, can RL and GL anytime, can deal with them directly, if shoes seized they can refund or new shoes. For the resellers of the world out there, they have a very expansive inventory to choose from whether you are looking to buy pallets or cases. Click here to read my full disclosure policy.Do you feel completely overwhelmed by your ebay inventory? Because eBay now has to issue 1099-K forms for a wider swath of its sellers, it and other similar platforms are now requiring users to disclose their social security numbers which Garret Watson, a senior policy analyst at the Tax Foundation, told CNBC could be a turnoff to potential sellers. Flipping a key of Cybersole, which is Out-of-Stock, could make you as much as selling 3 or 4 pairs of new Yeezys sneakers As long as you had some capital (AKA a $1,400 stimulus check . While the products sold by resale businesses may be very different, they all buy products and then resell them in the same form . You have until the 15th day of the 4th month from the date you file with the SOS to pay your first-year annual tax. At a minimum, Tew advises keeping your books up-to-date on a monthly basis. So, if you buy a shoe at retail for $100, plus $8 of sales tax and $10 for shipping, you are in for $118 to start. Here's my advice about bookkeeping and taxes for resellers. If you follow the process of flipping shoes, you can profit around $80-100 per pair for starters. Comes in original retail packaging, which may show wear and/or contain stickers. It is therefore typically in the owners best interest to form a corporation, rather than a LLC, unless the entity is being formed to hold real estate. Bill just made the jump from his W-2 job to full-time reselling on Amazon and eBay. There are so many hidden costs. He does my taxes, and he can do yours too. Sneaker retailers and their genuine customers. ), If you make less than that, it just means that no one else will be reporting your activity to the IRS, and it will be, To be clear, the net earnings on hobby sales, The truth is that if you make less than $400, you are not liable to pay. Beginning in January 2022, third-party platforms such as eBay, Etsy, and StockX are now required to report to the IRS when anyone sells $600 or more in goods. Complex Media, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Taking Deductions Against Your PayPal or 1099 Income. 5. Additionally, pending updates to tax laws could allow the IRS to track bank transactions of $600 and higher. Absolutely take advantage of the home office deduction. Answer (1 of 2): There are more resellers than buyers but if you have the right connections and consumer base. Single, under the age of 65 and not older or blind, you must file your taxes if: Unearned income was more than $1,050. Gross income was more than the larger of $1,050 or on earned income up to $11,650 plus $350. According to a Business Insider report, GOAT is the global's largest marketplace for premium sneakers, with a $250 million valuation. Below are the group of people you meet when you start flipping sneakers for profit. As a sneaker reseller business, you typically pay self-employment taxes which can be quite high. How to Report, File & Pay Sales tax for Resellers & Business Owners. In general, its a hobby if you dont have the intent of making a profit. Counting down our Picks for The Top 12 Shoes To Resell in 2021. Starting . I spend weeks trying to figure everything out. Last minute deadline extensions, incorporating stimulus payouts received after the tax year end, extreme delayswhat more could we ask for? Set aside 15.3% of your profits for self-employment tax (unless you made less than $400). As a side note, if you forget to renew the LLC, the company will generally be listed as inactive or administratively dissolved on the public record. Generally, resellers to do pay sales tax when they purchase the items, but must collect sales tax when those items are sold to the end user. Figure out which tool best suits your personality, and get started today. T he IRS considers high-volume resellers that are moving pairs much more frequently as self-employed. Sneaker business. While storage units are cheaper in suburban markets, the gas spent taking trips to and from them also accumulates. Holding onto your sneaker boxes may make for a convenient storage solution, but when it comes to reselling your kicks, the collateral we're talking box, dust bag, tags and receipt can also help you earn more. Brand restrictions Sometimes Amazon will restrict an entire brand for some sellers. What state has no sales tax? Do you need a resellers license to sell online? Many people wonder do eBay sellers pay tax? GOAT is a trusted and respected platform among sneakerheads. To keep track of their sales and profits, a lot of resellers document their numbers on an organized Excel spreadsheet. That's why Moungvang recommends that each reseller put aside a fair amount of money to have at their disposal as a safety net during tax season for emergencies or other business investments. Value Added Tax (VAT) is one of the key things business owners need to understand. Youre going to need a bot, aftermarket expert Ari Sarafyan told Complex in regards to buying coveted shoes online. 4 Do you need a resellers license to sell online? 2) find a CPA that is familiar with ecommerce. Time is money and a lot of people dont look at it like that., gentrification of footwear by Nike executives, allegations regarding the Trophy Room x Air Jordan 1 release, to be reported as income to the IRS and taxed as such. Taxes are the last thing on her mind. None of them use accountants, and each revealed their own methods for tackling tax season in the most painless and efficient way possible. Charge your own shipping fee or offer free shipping. Your email address will not be published. Tew says this can be done by using the following formula that involves your beginning inventory, your purchases, and your ending inventory. If you are continuously reselling sneakers in an effort to make a profit, your income must be claimed on Schedule C of your tax form. As of 2022, the tax laws are changing. However, it is . Purin Moungvang, a 17-year-old reseller who said he made about $200,000 in sneaker sales as a high-school junior in 2019, said advance planning is extremely important when it comes to taxes. While StockX prioritizes volume for lower fee rates, GOAT prioritizes successful sales, thus meaning sellers who are timely, present authentic products, and dont cancel orders are charged less than those with a worse track record. Use social media to share your products and get customers to show off their purchases online in order to gain traction. Yes, it is! If you continue to use the site, we will assume that this suits you. 1)The Flippd Spreadsheet Basic EditionORThe Flippd Spreadsheet Pro Edition. Cybersole is one of the most in-demand sneaker bots at the moment, at least on the secondary market.. Part of this goes to the excellent success rate it delivers. Every once in a while she lists old antiques that she finds in her attic. Almost all tax software allows you to include a 1099 fairly easily. Click here to read my full disclosure policy.The Best Products for Organizing Ebay Inventory Disorganized inventory is the downfall of any reselling business. There are many canny ones in the market. See you there! Input 2023 BDG Media, Inc. All rights reserved. If you dont pay this tax, the CA Franchise Tax Board will impose penalties and fines. . Do I have to collect sales tax if I sell online? No matter what you sell, where you sell it, and what form your business takes, you almost certainly need a business license or vendors permit to legally sell homemade goods. Nike SNKRS is the official Nike shoe app. Other people move pairs online from the comfort of their living room. Legally, the money made off reselling sneakers has to be reported as income to the IRS and taxed as such. Third party payment processors such as PayPal and Amazon are now required by the IRS to report transactions for resellers who make over $20,000 in sales, have 200 or more transactions. If you are continuously reselling sneakers in an effort to make a profit, your income must be claimed on Schedule C of your tax form. Should resellers prepare their own tax returns? A lot of people use Instagram, and its an easy way for people to see the shoes [I offer]. Visit our Exemption Certificate Portal, enter in your information, and follow the steps accordingly. As a reseller business idea, selling cosmetics online can be a great way of making money, as shipping is relatively low and order volume is normally larger than the average. No matter what your business is . So if you've been doing your work from your front room couch, you may want to consider a dedicated office space. Input spoke to several sneaker and streetwear resellers who said that, while theyve already been careful to report their income to the IRS, theyre more concerned about people who flip product more irregularly and may not have realized theyve been generating taxable income. There is always a very very small risk that the IRS takes a look and its not good enough for them, but Ive never seen that happen. Reselling sneakers is polarizing. Nothing is overnight.. This whole roller coaster of emotions could have been avoided had Merrill not fallen for themyth that you pay the same tax rate on all of your income. Nike Dunk Low Medium Olive Womens. eBay believes in following the law and proper tax accounting, a spokesperson for the company told CNBC. Some people sell stuff for fun, like Patrice. Daisy doesnt want to stop her positive selling momentum, but Merrill told her to stop selling once she hits a certain point because he doesnt want to go from the 12% federal income tax tax bracket to the 22% tax bracket. The Air Yeezy 2 Red October sneakers, released in 2014, carried a $250 original price tag. In fact, in 2017, the government agreed to a trading allowance that gave sellers the freedom to earn up to 1,000 in sales without paying anything in tax. Patrice's hobby income is still going unreported to the IRS, but in her case, its okay because she is not generating a profit. If you drove 2,000 miles for business, youd have over a $1,000 deduction against your business taxable income. 2021 UPDATE2021- Reseller & Social Media Training Link:(Learn how to sell on Ebay, Amazo. She files yearly tax returns with the help of her accountant. A high volume seller, typically someone who does more than 200 transactions in a year, not only has to have money to sell all those shoes, they need some place to store them. "I like the spreadsheet because it's my way to gauge what I'm doing," Fresen said, adding that he uses QuickBooks to handle his taxes. Sean Drakes/Getty Images Entertainment/Getty Images. Finally, let's discuss the fees. While some may see backdooring as an easy come-up, the art of buying multiple pairs from brick and mortar retailers comes with hidden costs most overlook. Its very profitable. In contrast, business expenses directly offset business income. When you do so, all the money from the 1099 looks like pure profit to . GOAT. But for others especially newer resellers its a mad scramble to gather reports, receipts, and forms and then try to figure out what to do with them. To do that, you need to keep good records. For those moving major units, they are often acquired by a bot digitally or through backdooring pairs from brick and mortar retailers. And their customer service team is what keeps me coming back. Condition is unknown. Can you, Read More Best Shelves & Bins for Organizing Ebay InventoryContinue, This post may contain some affiliate links for your convenience. In recent years, online platforms such as StockX, GOAT and eBay have all become vogue and verified places for sneakers to be resold. 1. How much can you sell on eBay before you have to pay taxes? Sneaker Reseller Guide. Bills sister Daisy started selling on Poshmark part time earlier this year, and her husband Merrill has a full-time job as a teacher. I kept reselling pairs in that range until I had enough money saved to buy a pair of shoes for $900. These costs are all claimed if your shoes sell and are first verified as real. Ebay has recently published information on their website about it. 3. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); The last couple of tax seasons have felt a bit like the wild west of the IRS. Not keeping good records and getting support when you need it. After you buy the goods in the store, you can choose by yourself. Thank you for a very clear and informative article. From here, it's actually not that bad if you have your expenses well tracked. I talk with reseller business owners almost every day, and I can tell you first hand that the tax myths discussed below are widespread and continue to be perpetuated. Fresen previously recommended that all resellers keep a detailed section for their expenses, which can include anything from shipping costs to the cost of gas used to travel to a post office to ship sneakers to a customer. they are bound to have something that interests you! If you do not have a physical presence, you generally do not have to collect sales tax for online sales. 5 Of The World's Most Valuable Sneakers Right Now. Sneakers that are resold can be acquired online or in store. Some also use other systems like QuickBooks and TurboTax. But if you havent been doing that, which is often the case for newer resellers, you have to do your best to estimate your COGS. Reporting 1099 Income and Non-1099 Income. Merrill was worried that if they had a taxable income of more than $78,000 that they would have to pay 22% on the whole amount. The LLC filing fee is a one-time fee paid to the state to form your LLC. Air Jordan 1 Mid Bred Toe White GS. Follow through all the areas in the Business section of the TurboTax Home & Business . The price a reseller paid for the shoe, the shipping cost, sales tax, and other fees involved are eligible in some casesto be listed as deductions when reporting taxes. The 1099 threshold now issues a 1099 for anyone who was paid $600 or more in non-employment income. 90% of current tax year bill. Generally, resellers to do pay sales tax when they purchase the items, but must collect sales tax when those items are sold to the end user. The manufacturer has almost no control over the product. Reseller tax myths are alive and well. "Your sneaker reseller might have it or will have it sourced from somewhere. Sneakers can be expensive. Inventory storage space is the one exception to the regular & exclusive use rule. Flare Raffle Bots Price: 99,90 or about $115 (including one1 month) followed by $30/month. There's ample opportunity to resell shoes and make a tidy profit doing so. Usually you can get a bot from $1,000-$8,000.. When tax time rolls around, Merrill and Daisy end up with a taxable income of $85,000, which put them in the 22% tax bracket. Don't believe everything you hear on the playground. But resellers are required to pay taxes, just like any other business owners. Daisy doesnt really worry about taxes, and lately, she doesnt care what Merrill thinks anyway, so she decides to keep selling. I just genuinely like him, and hes easy to work with. Significant cosmetic and/or functional defects. So if they find out people arent paying taxes, theyre gonna come get it.. 110 % of last years tax bill. Nike Dunk Low Golden Swoosh Tan Womens. It is possible to borrow money from a limited liability company in which you are a member. Always let them negotiate a little to make the customers happy and make sure your customers are . Then Merrill was glad, and he remembered that Daisy's independence and strong character were the reasons he married her in the first place. Best products for Organizing eBay InventoryContinue, this post may contain some affiliate links for convenience... Less than $ 400 ) on Poshmark part time earlier this year, and her husband has! To retailer sites non-employment income get customers to show off their purchases online in order reduce. The costs they incur with each sale for those moving major units, they often... 5 of the World & # x27 ; s most Valuable sneakers right.. With access to useful monthly and annual Reports 1099 looks like pure profit to tax rates non-employment. Self-Employment taxes which can be quite high for fun, like Patrice 've been doing your work from your room! Resellers than buyers but if you follow the steps accordingly may show and/or. Of the World & # x27 ; s my advice about bookkeeping and taxes for resellers down. Could we ask for its an easy way for people to see the shoes I... Easy way for people to see the shoes [ I offer ] order to gain traction shoes! Volume, some resellers simply use real estate, is not influenced by any commissions we receive, stimulus. Get nearly all of their shoes online I had enough money saved to buy pair! Site, we will assume that this suits you is sorting through all of the best items to in... Show wear and/or contain stickers is not influenced by any commissions we receive any goods materials! Told CNBC markets, the threshold is even lower anyway, so she decides keep. High volume resellers should report their profits as hobby income state to form your LLC amp ; the.... Gain traction that is familiar with ecommerce report, file & do sneaker resellers pay taxes uk ; pay sales tax for sales... Is a trusted and respected platform among Sneakerheads and results in a much lower effective tax.! Information on their website about it the jump from his W-2 job to full-time reselling on Amazon and.... Expert Ari Sarafyan told complex in regards to buying coveted shoes online sneaker reseller,... Advises keeping your books up-to-date on a monthly basis after the tax year end, extreme more., theyre gon na come get it.. 110 % of last tax! Check out numerous pairs from brick and mortar retailers buying coveted shoes.! The shoes [ I offer ] been do sneaker resellers pay taxes uk your work from your room... With three successful sneaker resellers get nearly all of their sales and profits, a lot of people Instagram... Significant tax deduction the business section of the 4th month from the 1099 threshold Now issues a for. Training Link: ( Learn how to sell online following formula that involves your beginning inventory, purchases. Incorporating stimulus payouts received after the tax laws could allow the IRS high-volume. Gets paid commissions on purchases made through our links to retailer sites to do,! Complex in regards to buying coveted shoes online people arent paying taxes, just like any other business.... The process of flipping shoes, you need it shoes sell and are first verified real... Decides to keep good records and getting support when you need to understand 115 ( one1... To $ 11,650 plus $ 350 resellers that are moving pairs much more frequently as self-employed do believe... Resell sneakers office space their living room intent of making a profit for those moving major units they. Reseller business, youd have over a $ 1,000 deduction against your business taxable.... Yours too Air Yeezy 2 Red October sneakers, Sneakerheads, sneaker resellers who make thousands of dollars month. Products sold by resale businesses may be very different, they all buy products and then resell in... See the shoes [ I offer ] bank transactions of $ 600 and higher completely by... Reported as income to the IRS Merrill has a full-time job as a.! Complex gets paid commissions on purchases made through our links to retailer sites their best practices for their!, all the areas in the business section of the World & # ;. To make the customers happy and make a tidy profit doing so you have to pay your late. Making a profit you made less than $ 400 ) early can also help ensure that you n't... That bad if you have until the 15th day of the TurboTax Home & amp ; sales. Extensions, incorporating stimulus payouts received after the tax year end, extreme delayswhat more could ask! Quickbooks and TurboTax spoke with three successful sneaker resellers get nearly all of their living.... Your customers are doing so CPA that is familiar with ecommerce 1,000- $ 8,000 impressive! Trying to rapidly check out numerous pairs from websites before they actually sell out tew advises keeping your books on! Years tax bill for your convenience even lower keeping your books up-to-date on a basis... The key things business owners need to keep track of their living room money! A sneaker reseller business, youd have over a $ 250 original price tag full! Whole companies with dozens of employees who buy and resell sneakers you need a resellers license to sell eBay... As self-employed started selling on Poshmark part time earlier this year, and others sellers. From them also accumulates around $ 80-100 per pair for starters your eBay inventory Disorganized inventory is the exception! And make a tidy profit doing so some people sell stuff for fun, like Patrice to! The business section of the TurboTax Home & amp ; business owners customers are used for business, have... A one-time fee paid to the IRS considers high-volume resellers that are moving pairs much more frequently as.! As such keep selling earned income up to $ 11,650 plus $ 350 more could we ask?., while low volume resellers should report their profits as hobby income can get bot... Irs considers high-volume resellers that are resold can be done by using the following that! Moving major units, they all buy products and then resell them in the business section of World. Do n't pay your taxes late, which you will inevitably run into $ 8,000 your. Self-Employment taxes which can result in do sneaker resellers pay taxes uk from the IRS and taxed as such in,. Links to retailer sites do sneaker resellers pay taxes uk completely overwhelmed by your eBay inventory websites before they actually sell out and sure... Annual tax as hobby income you for a very clear and informative article $ 1,050 or on earned up... To and from them also accumulates by $ 30/month and efficient way possible Nike?. For resellers of people use Instagram, and get started today charge your own shipping fee or free... Your shoes sell and are first verified as real StockX are incentivized to become power sellers on are. Making a profit on purchases made through our links to retailer sites this year, and follow the accordingly... Jump from his W-2 job to full-time reselling on Amazon and eBay taxes for resellers have your expenses well.! For paying their taxes living room commissions on purchases made through our links to sites... Been doing your work from your front room couch, you may want to consider a dedicated space... Costs are all claimed if your shoes sell and are first verified as real resellers... Your taxes late, which means complex gets paid commissions on purchases made our! Has recently published information on their website about it pro Edition comes in original packaging. Hobby if you 've been doing your work from your front room couch, you may want to a. Sneaker resellers who make thousands of dollars a month and compiled their best practices for paying their taxes of. Are required to pay taxes if you resell shoes rights reserved the IRS get today... Your taxes late, which you are a member as real than $ 400.... A spokesperson for the company told CNBC your front room couch, you need bot! Process of flipping shoes, you may want to consider a dedicated office space on the.... ) is one of the TurboTax Home & amp ; social Media Training Link: Learn... Tackling tax season means a reseller finds themselves shorter on cash than they.. Come get it.. 110 % of last years tax bill steps accordingly complex paid. Irs considers high-volume resellers that are moving pairs much more frequently as self-employed advises keeping books! One1 month ) followed by $ 30/month you can not claim for: any goods or materials bought for Red. Will inevitably run into the misinformation, including the biggest reseller tax,! Tax bill had enough money saved to buy a pair of shoes for $ 900 their own to! Self-Employment tax ( VAT ) is do sneaker resellers pay taxes uk of the 4th month from the 1099 threshold Now issues a 1099 easily... Pro version tracks more and has an impressive dashboard expert Ari Sarafyan complex! Keeping track of mileage used for business, you typically pay self-employment taxes which can result in penalties the. Month ) followed by $ 30/month Spreadsheet pro Edition she files yearly tax returns with the help her... With each sale unless you made less than $ 400 ) do you need a resellers license to online. Believe everything you hear on the playground threshold Now issues a 1099 fairly easily what Merrill thinks anyway, she... 99,90 or about $ 115 ( including one1 month ) followed by $ 30/month misinformation, including the reseller... Not that bad if you have your expenses well tracked control over the product 2,000 for. The areas in the most painless and efficient way possible their website about it,,... This tax, the gas spent taking trips to and from them also accumulates reseller amp... The platform in order to reduce the costs they incur with each sale suburban markets, the threshold even...

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