Rcjr is a gentle spirited man who loves his family and grieves over his sin. I checked out the comments on the Spinderella blog. Or for the other secret alcoholics in the pews who are struggling and ashamed and who need help? Barbara is correct on the I Cor.5 text. They will also confront you with a dose of reality about alcoholics. It was never a put down, and the first time I heard it used there was by the recovering alcoholics. If alcoholism is a disease, its the only one you can buy in a bottle. Friend your comment made me weep. Is this text taught or preached in churches? I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. But interventions and treatment does work. The scars are still there but not that noticeable. That is an important element here. Of course enabling doesnt help, ever. Gossip and Condemnation of others is no less sinful than is murder. And yes, the drunk chose to drive. Sproul 2 has done. That must have been very tough and I dont know why that didnt work. And its important to try. Of course, if people believe that the real church somehow went dormant with the death of the last apostle and was not revived until the sixteenth century a lot of otherwise good ideas based on experience are just trashed-like the need for privacy regarding some things and how to handle both sinners and privacy within the church. Hopefully they get to Al-Anon and counseling. They display all of the signs.). Not sorry I did, either. Sproul, founder of Ligonier Ministries, theologian, author, broadcaster, teacher, and pastor, died December 14, 2017. I do agree that people wont change unless they want to. You have taken this quote out of context . I think that PaJo made an excellent comment about the differences up the thread. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment. Sproul Jr. is receiving and that persons training/licensing. Perhaps youve never witnessed Matthew 18 church discipline carried out in a loving biblical manner. To say that this is the reason he abuses alcohol is obfuscating the real fact that not everyone who goes through tragedy becomes an alcoholic. I also believe we should take this in context with Matthew 18 and Galatians 6 and James 1 (and maybe others, too). She can correct me if I did. His addiction did not force him to drive, and his addiction did not force him choose alcohol rather than treatment, assuming he was actually addicted. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. We agree on your closing statement, Velour. Says that even now, when he sees a half-full glass of wine or beer left over at a restaurant, he has to fight down the urge to run over, grab the glass, and chug the remainder.). Sigh. There is definitely a difference between an alcoholic and others who enjoy a beer or wine. Isnt there some kind of authoritative oversight in the Presbyterian denomination? Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. I know that you have been negatively impacted by your family members alcoholism. Try several different meetings and find one thats a good fit for you. Julie Anne Smith, at Spiritual Sounding Board, has written a number of article on him, including accusations that he allegedly believes in wife spanking. There are many Christians who lurk here who struggle with addictions. Today, Stephen Nichols and Mrs. Vesta Sproul talk about the vision behind RBC 10 years after its founding. I didnt have serious burns, jist brown patches, PTL! It has its uses because social pressure can be brought to bear from time to time, and you do know whether to let your kids go play over at so and sos house (not if Daddy is a drunk, for instance and keeping with this conversation) and it does get out who (married) was seen with whom (not a spouse) and what sweet young thing got into the car with whom after school after being forbidden to do that. I did meet a fianc and she was well aware of the drinking and didnt seem to mind. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. 2. Years ago, I led a Bible study of workplace colleagues in which a young man confessed that he was struggling with excessive drinking because he was the son of an alcoholic. Velour was strongly pushing people on this thread for a good long time regardless of motive, which none of us were privy too until someone much later on asked her if this topic triggered her in some fashion. Our church told that churchs search committee *everything* that had gone on.and they still hired the guy. 5 comes to mind. My experience with my brother had no religious component. Having been raised in a highly abusive alcoholic home (My mom) it sickens me sometimes to read about the love and compassion we should have for the addicted.And for the we are all just sinners crowd your ignorance is truly sickening. Talk about a great way of destroying the faith of children! It just always seemed clear to me how Paul was instructing the Corinthian church to deal with sin that caused harm to the testimony of Christ. Please see the story that Friend posted today about how their churchs clergy dealt with a woman member who struggled with alcoholism. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. You can be sure that Barbara, Dee, and I sit on a lot of information that never gets released to the public. Can you find out for us if this was a New Calvinist takeover thing? I just want to be true-blue, show him that God doesnt run away from us when we are bad. We ran this support group for 16 years. It appears that the message is that if we allow someone to that has no intention of repenting to go on like business as usual, we are NOT helping the person and it sends the wrong message to others. Find local and national death notices, funeral notices, obituaries, in memoriams, and acknowledgements at funeral-notices.co.uk, plus a directory of over 3,000 UK Funeral Directors Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? Is depression, grief, or anxiety mentioned in that passage or a similar one in the Bible? Few of them are willing and even able to do that. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; Once again Velours advice is pragmatic and sound. SEE? She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. Velour, Im very sorry I hurt you. I did read your post, Daisy. We had connections with the San Jose Police dept, Good Samaritan Hospital, The Foundry School, The Bill Wilson House, Teen Challenge, Victory Outreach etc,etc. From just a casual observation hes not a drunk. I am not in that camp as that is an extreme position and there is much more that is known now about helping people with addictions.. to assemble a bevy of personal intimate liaisons, or In Sprouls case his problems go much deeper than alcoholism. I pray the Lord will heal you of all your wounds, sir. Yes,?, no?, I dont know ? For example check out the DSM regarding personality disorders and note the dysfunctional behaviors attached to the diagnoses and note the link between the dysfunctional behaviors and the diagnosis-not everything is due to some prior trauma-not in the eyes of those whom we trust to know about these things. The Sprouls have eleven grandchildren, one granddaughter deceased, and seven great-grandchildren. Velour I dont know if you suffer from reading comprehension problems in general or are just having a bad day. I draw the readers particular attention to Dees phrase: treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. Hes not going to jail or treatment? And yes, Dark Ages applies to how the church mishandled each one of these situations. Under what circumstances did you become aware of alcohol abuse in these people-that might be a tip off. But here may be a hint. I believe some people are born with a tendency towards addictive behavior and that is why I believe in psychiatric counseling for these tendencies. People should not have to die or be maimed before our courts meet out punishments that suit the crime. Being a parent of an alcoholic or drug abuser is scary. On 6/2/17,SpinderellaSproulpostedSpinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr. Having failed tomeet the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, RC Sproul Jr appeared on June 2, 2017 in Allen County Indiana Superior Court before Judge Samuel Keirns for a pre-trial status conference. I am sorry to hear this. Brene Brown said something about if you numb the pain, you are also numbing the good emotions, and thats sort of in the back of my mind now when I think about things like alcohol and other distracting and numbing tools. On the other hand if Sproul has bee covering up and protecting his son then maybe Sproul should be disqualified for protecting and covering. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) and who was reeling from Fridays put downs and for calls to kick alcoholics out of churches. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. I kind of understood what they were saying because I came from a church that was very chummy with Sproul Jr and his teachings. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. Its rude. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. R.C. Finally? But the church should also do their level-best to get him into treatment since hes a full-blown alcoholic with all of the classic symptoms. I think many people do not understand how alcoholism changes the brain/cognitve activities of those addicted. The majority of pastors, elders, deacons, church counselors, and church staff in general arent qualified to give counseling of any kind on any subject (even the Bible sometimes), even though they often presume they are. Sorry I cant help you, friend. He needs to be in an in-patient treatment program. No one can make him do that. I need to be careful to look to Scripture for my measure of Gods Law for sin, not taking the measure from what people and tradition may say sin is. And One Hand Washes the Other. We have really lucked out (in the old days I would have said been blessed) in the MHPs who are helping various members of our family. Christian support group, made headlines in The Milpitas Post , etc, etc. Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. If he is putting his son into jobs in ministry (which is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong), he is enabling him in some way. Serous help? Hospitalization with detox and follow-up care by his physician I have studied and truly believe and understand the disease/treatment model for addictions. Just that God, even when I was doubting him the most, was faithful.). Hitting bottom helps. And FWIW as an RN I did mostly OB except for one year in public health with my little black bag in the slums of my home town. People can discuss their thoughts and glaring hypocrisy so that what we are seeing with R.C. Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. What a hateful thing to recommend that be done for someone with a serious substance abuse problem. Hundreds of people showed up. Call me an old fuddy-duddy, but I will upset folks if I keep talking catch you on the next TWW piece. Driving drunk with two minors nettedhim two felony charges. Thats the Lord Himself teaching, so I dont take that lightly. I agree that Sproul 2 shouldnt be enabled by his father, Sproul 1. I grew up in a verbally abusive family, so I have been here before. Hes been mollycoddled and bailed out every time hes gotten himself into trouble. Our justice system and plea deals and the pitfalls of that could be a whole topic. He was also driving at 30 mph for at least 2 miles with a flat tire on I-469. Being a believer, in that crowd, has little to do with belief and everything to do with appearances. If they leave church, it would most likely be because no one put him out and continued to let his family suffer harm. It just says any and all sin can send a person to Hell, not that all sins are the same or equal. Intriguing. I realize that our understanding of addiction today does make it complex, but I am just frustrated with the hypocrisy that makes us look pathetic to non-believers. Has that been reported on or discussed? After all the assistant still needed to run numerous errands for RC, and a little thing like a suspended driver's license wasn't going to get in the way of that. I was excommunicated from my NeoCalvinist church on a trumped up charge, like the godly doctor in his 70s before me, and a godly middle-aged woman in finance before him.). started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. I am a broken, wounded woman, who happens to have different people in my life who cut, starve, purge, overeat, get drunk, medicate with R/X drugs, smoke pot, work themselves ragged, overspend, in hope to silence the agony of depression, intense anxiety, raging self-contempt, hopeless despair, excruciating shame, and (false) guilt. Youre too quick to take offense because youre reading things that havent even been said. 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